Qantas denies double points due to definition of "booking"

[JennyMG]

I’m going to side with op.
Because, while I’ve travelled a LOT, I’m a newbie in terms of bookings, points, rewards etc and there’s sooooo much to know.
I reserved a classic reward flight yesterday.
To me, it’s a reservation NOT a booking even though I gave my cc.
Why?
To a non- experienced person until I have paid and received confirmation for my reservation, it’s just that- a reservation, not a booking. Think of accommodation - reserve a room? Not paid. BOOK a room insinuates it’s paid, done and dusted.
I have a prn a REFERENCE number, not a booking number.
If I went to fly with it, the way it is, reserved, it would be a no go. Can’t fly with a reservation in my view ( that of the average person) but you can when it’s paid and ticketed. Wait, there’s more.
I’ve paid but not yet received my ticket by email. I guess they have to allocate it- BOOK it. it’s a dead zone. It’s reserved - held but incomplete. Not booked until PAID and TICKETED.
Planes are no different from trains . Reserving is not booking from my POV.
The onus is on Qantas to put ts & cs in plain-speak. Or pay up.
They won’t, but they should. I get that THEY knew what they meant. maybe a platinum traveller should have also ...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I’m going to side with op.
Because, while I’ve travelled a LOT, I’m a newbie in terms of bookings, points, rewards etc and there’s sooooo much to know.
I reserved a classic reward flight yesterday.
To me, it’s a reservation NOT a booking even though I gave my cc.
Why?
To a non- experienced person until I have paid and received confirmation for my reservation, it’s just that- a reservation, not a booking. Think of accommodation - reserve a room? Not paid. BOOK a room insinuates it’s paid, done and dusted.
I have a prn a REFERENCE number, not a booking number.
If I went to fly with it, the way it is, reserved, it would be a no go. Can’t fly with a reservation in my view ( that of the average person) but you can when it’s paid and ticketed. Wait, there’s more.
I’ve paid but not yet received my ticket by email. I guess they have to allocate it- BOOK it. it’s a dead zone. It’s reserved - held but incomplete. Not booked until PAID and TICKETED.
Planes are no different from trains . Reserving is not booking from my POV.
The onus is on Qantas to put ts & cs in plain-speak. Or pay up.
They won’t, but they should. I get that THEY knew what they meant. maybe a platinum traveller should have also ...

I can see your point. But even you are making (valid) statements here that the ‘ordinary’ traveller might not be expected to know.

for example you know that you cannot fly unless your booking/reservation/whatever is ticketed. But most travellers would not. They assume that as soon as they have ‘paid’ they are good to go. They don’t understand the nuance between payment and ticketing.

And contractually I think they are correct. As far as the passenger is concerned, once you pay, that’s the contract.

But that’s not what the QF terms and conditions state, They say to ‘book’. That’s an action, which is potentially ambiguous. The most generous reading is that you simply need to book, payment and ticketing is not required, And that’s the interpretation QF has applied (fairly generous).

 

[Spongbob]

Should I vent that my bookings made in April did not qualify? I did not pay the credit card account before 8 May!

 

[opusman]

To me, it’s a reservation NOT a booking even though I gave my cc.
Why?
To a non- experienced person until I have paid and received confirmation for my reservation, it’s just that- a reservation, not a booking. Think of accommodation - reserve a room? Not paid. BOOK a room insinuates it’s paid, done and dusted.

You're creating a distinction where none exists. A booking and a reservation are the same thing.

 

[JennyMG]

But that’s not what the QF terms and conditions state, They say to ‘book’. That’s an action, which is potentially ambiguous. The most generous reading is that you simply need to book, payment and ticketing is not required, And that’s the interpretation QF has applied (fairly generous).

Yes, agree, and I'd like to see them apply the same interpretation (that I simply need to book, not necessarily pay or be ticketed) to my actual flight. I wouldn't be allowed into the gate, let alone on the plane!
So what's good for the goose, ISN'T good for the gander, here, I think.

 

[downgraded]

You're creating a distinction where none exists. A booking and a reservation are the same thing.

I’m going to side with op.
Because, while I’ve travelled a LOT, I’m a newbie in terms of bookings, points, rewards etc and there’s sooooo much to know.
I reserved a classic reward flight yesterday.
To me, it’s a reservation NOT a booking even though I gave my cc.

Th first synonym even Google gives for Reservation is Advanced Booking, the second is Booking.
You make a hotel reservation, give your CC details to guarantee it and you've accepted the T&Cs including cancellation rules etc. without making any payment.

 

[RichardMEL]

Yes, agree, and I'd like to see them apply the same interpretation (that I simply need to book, not necessarily pay or be ticketed) to my actual flight. I wouldn't be allowed into the gate, let alone on the plane!
So what's good for the goose, ISN'T good for the gander, here, I think.

huh?

You want to be able to book your flight but not pay until after it? That's kind of what you're saying to my way of reading.

While it's true if I go to a shop and ask them to make me a salad roll they will make it and I pay when they hand it over, it's hardly the same with transportation. You pay up front for it.

Remember this is about promotions not travel. One needs to have a confirmed, paid ticket prior to travel - it may be flexible and be able to be cancelled with no penalty, but at the point you rock up for your flight you need it paid.

For the promotion they are saying to book the flight within the period stated. That's not rocket science. Frankly the rest is semantics. In the OP's case they had booked *before* the period opened(they had not yet received thepromo offer) - I fail to see how one would somehow think that the promotion would apply because they paid for it then. If OP had cancelled that booking after getting the promo and created a new booking (or got the TA to) then no issue.

And of course a company like QF will apply the T&C interpretation of most benefit to them. Our job is to make the most we can out of them.

 

[JennyMG]

huh?

You want to be able to book your flight but not pay until after it? That's kind of what you're saying to my way of reading.

Of course not. If you read my post, you'll see I'm saying that I believe I need an actual ticket to constitute a booking. I think that if I do the online bit, (I did one yesterday) and give my credit card (did that yesterday too) that it feels like I've reserved / begun a booking. But UNTIL I receive a physical (or digital) receipt for it, ie a ticket, to ME it is not booked, I feel it is not confirmed. (That's why I'm a bit antsy about my Classic reward flight, I haven't received an e-ticket yet, and until I do, it's not BOOKED.)
What I'm saying is that the nuance between reservation and booking, and the grey area between the two definitions is ambiguous and in the eye of the beholder. For me, I need the physical receipt, THEN it's a booking. Until then, it's a reservation. Qantas should have made that clearer. That's the trouble the op is having. Qantas are saying that the intent to pay was there, and the 'hold' constituted a booking. However the op could have just as well cancelled that hold. So in my opinion that's a reservation, but not booked until paid. Which he did, in May. So in Qantas' definition of the word booking, I was saying OP could 'fly' with the held reservation. With MY definition, he could not.
As I said, ambiguous.

 

[burmans]

I can see your point. But even you are making (valid) statements here that the ‘ordinary’ traveller might not be expected to know.

for example you know that you cannot fly unless your booking/reservation/whatever is ticketed. But most travellers would not. They assume that as soon as they have ‘paid’ they are good to go. They don’t understand the nuance between payment and ticketing.

And contractually I think they are correct. As far as the passenger is concerned, once you pay, that’s the contract.

But that’s not what the QF terms and conditions state, They say to ‘book’. That’s an action, which is potentially ambiguous. The most generous reading is that you simply need to book, payment and ticketing is not required, And that’s the interpretation QF has applied (fairly generous).

Of course neither booking nor reservation are defined terms in the Condition of Carriage, and it would probably help if they were to avoid this conflict of interpretation. Pretty surprising they arent really, given in general this is a reaonably comprehensive guide and a bunch of much less important definitions appear.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Of course neither booking nor reservation are defined terms in the Condition of Carriage, and it would probably help if they were to avoid this conflict of interpretation. Pretty surprising they arent really, given in general this is a reaonably comprehensive guide and a bunch of much less important definitions appear.

I’m pretty sure reservation is defined, including the difference between a reservation, and a ticketed reservation. We discussed this upthread and it’s something like 4.1 onwards? (i’m on the move at the moment so not able to check)

By definition booking and reservation are synonymous. I guess qf could have used the terminology ‘make a reservation between xx and yy dates’ but that doesn’t read as nicely.

 

[burmans]

Section 1 is where the Definition of Expressions Used is and neither Booking nor Reserved are in this section. I use capitals here specifically as that how legal documents identify definitions.

Section 4 does use both the terms reservation and booking but (legally) not the same as a definition. 4.1 is about Making a Reservation but does not use the word booking. While I agree personally with your interpretation that reservation = booking I'm not in agreement that this is explicitly defined anywhere in the COC.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Section 1 is where the Definition of Expressions Used is and neither Booking nor Reserved are in this section. I use capitals here specifically as that how legal documents identify definitions.

Section 4 does use both the terms reservation and booking but (legally) not the same as a definition. 4.1 is about Making a Reservation but does not use the word booking. While I agree personally with your interpretation that reservation = booking I'm not in agreement that this is explicitly defined anywhere in the COC.

I'm not sure ordinary terms need to be included in the definitions section?