The Odd Thing About Stockholm and Copenhagen.

[Renato1]

We very much enjoyed our visits to Stockholm and Copenhagen a few weeks back.

However, an oddity we observed in both cities left us puzzled, as we just don't see it in say Italy, Germany, Croatia, Australia or the USA.

Around eight in every 10 prams was being pushed happily by a single male. One in ten by a single female. The other 10% by couples.

We even saw one male walking around with a baby doll strapped to the front of his chest (in training for a baby-carrying licence, perhaps?)

Well, we're still scratching our heads.They can't all be stay-at-home husbands, can they?
Regards,
Renato

 

[Deleted member]

It sounds like a race of aliens has invaded earth and taken control of the bodies of inhabitants of those cities, because they are from some alien solar system they haven’t properly worked out the true social order of earthlings......

Or it could be that Scandinavia is way ahead of the rest of the world in changing social stereotypes.

 

[andye]

I noticed the pram thing in Gothenburg too.
I would have thought an equal number might be expected

 

[LadyC]

Both governments have parental leave subsidies that provide leave to both parents for a minimum of 12 months. Whilst I don't know a lot about it, Sweden provides a minimum of 3 months leave to fathers on a use it or lose it basis. So I am not surprised by what you saw (well maybe a bit surprised by the doll but everyone is different).

 

[burmans]

They can't all be stay-at-home husbands, can they?

Yes they are - they even have a name for them, latte-papa's. Their social security system gives the same rights for paternity leave as maternity leave and its significant. This has become the standard, fathers are strongly encouraged to take this leave and not doing so is actively discouraged.

Sweden is apparently full of 'latte dads' carrying toddlers -- and it's a sign of critical social change

 

[Denali]

Why would a single male pushing a pram be puzzling at all?

 

[kelvedon]

Walked into a village pub in England earlier this year and was confronted by about 10 men standing at the bar, all with dogs on leads.
At first I thought it was some sort of club meeting, but one of the men admitted to me, they all said to the wife “ I’m taking the dog for a walk” but simply met each other in the pub instead.

 

[andye]

Why would a single male pushing a pram be puzzling at all?

I was very fond of pushing prams and look forward to doing so for my grandchildren. What is curious in my mind is why there should be so many more men than women

PS:it did occur to me that dads on parental leave might be more likely to be going out for walks rather than carrying out the myriad domestic duties indoors while still retaining parenting kudos

 

[Denali]

..... What is curious in my mind is why there should be so many more men than women
....

Same sex dads (although in my experience, they seem to have a high number of twins), dads on leave, stay at home dads, single dads, dads who are relieving mum from all day care, dads enjoying some sunshine and alone time with bub after work or pickup up bub from daycare and walking home?

We have a daycare in our complex so seeing dads with bubs/kids is not unusual for us.

 

[Renato1]

Yes they are - they even have a name for them, latte-papa's. Their social security system gives the same rights for paternity leave as maternity leave and its significant. This has become the standard, fathers are strongly encouraged to take this leave and not doing so is actively discouraged.

Sweden is apparently full of 'latte dads' carrying toddlers -- and it's a sign of critical social change

Thanks for the explanation, and the part -
" – typically youngish, bearded men carrying their babies in slings or hanging out with their toddlers."

well yes, the vast majority of males I saw pushing prams singly did have beards.

There were plenty of clean shaven men about - who weren't pushing trams.

Can we conclude that either males who take paternity leave either have a beard or grow one, or that clean shaven males don't take paternity leave (or women shun clean shaven men?)
Cheers,
Renato

 

[JohnK]

I was very fond of pushing prams and look forward to doing so for my grandchildren. What is curious in my mind is why there should be so many more men than women

I love pushing the stroller when we go somewhere together. The least I can do considering wife looks after apartment.

 

[burmans]

Thanks for the explanation, and the part -
" – typically youngish, bearded men carrying their babies in slings or hanging out with their toddlers."

well yes, the vast majority of males I saw pushing prams singly did have beards.

There were plenty of clean shaven men about - who weren't pushing trams.

Can we conclude that either males who take paternity leave either have a beard or grow one, or that clean shaven males don't take paternity leave (or women shun clean shaven men?)
Cheers,
Renato

I discovered about this when I was in Stockholm and went on one of those free tours (highly recommended incidentally). When we had this explained the guide did note some of the distinguishing characteristics of a latte-pappa and yes a beard was one of them, before we had a "spot the latte-pappa competition.

To be fair though, this tour was in a hipster part of town (Södermalm) so this may have been a factor.

I think one of the factors of course be that they are no working and see this non-working period as an opportunity to realise their inner hipster. Or of course it could just be that while I'm not working I can let myself go a bit, personally I tend not to shave much at weekends!

 

[Austman]

The odd thing I thought when I lived in Stockholm was the number of prams full stop! Compared with Australia they were everywhere! And big ones too, even out in the snow and ice of winter. But the city is built for them. Public staircases have pram wheel ramps. Public buses have large pram parking areas. Etc. If you have a pram, you ride for free on the buses! I considered getting a pram just for that reason!

During my time in Stockholm the government introduced the "use-it-or-lose" parental leave for fathers. I believe that parents could already split the rather generous parental leave between themselves as they wished but it was thought that not enough fathers were taking their share.

 

[Renato1]

I discovered about this when I was in Stockholm and went on one of those free tours (highly recommended incidentally). When we had this explained the guide did note some of the distinguishing characteristics of a latte-pappa and yes a beard was one of them, before we had a "spot the latte-pappa competition.

To be fair though, this tour was in a hipster part of town (Södermalm) so this may have been a factor.

I think one of the factors of course be that they are no working and see this non-working period as an opportunity to realise their inner hipster. Or of course it could just be that while I'm not working I can let myself go a bit, personally I tend not to shave much at weekends!

I think we were playing the same competition without knowing it. We weren't staying in the hipster part of either cities.

One was Solna Centrum and in Copenhagen our apartment was in a residential estate just out of town.

I was unaware of the free tours, though the train took us most everywhere.
Cheers,
Renato

 

[Renato1]

The odd thing I thought when I lived in Stockholm was the number of prams full stop! Compared with Australia they were everywhere! And big ones too, even out in the snow and ice of winter. But the city is built for them. Public staircases have pram wheel ramps. Public buses have large pram parking areas. Etc. If you have a pram, you ride for free on the buses! I considered getting a pram just for that reason!

During my time in Stockholm the government introduced the "use-it-or-lose" parental leave for fathers. I believe that parents could already split the rather generous parental leave between themselves as they wished but it was thought that not enough fathers were taking their share.

You are dead right about the size and complexity of the prams. I'd missed it but my wife spotted the differences.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Renato1]

Why would a single male pushing a pram be puzzling at all?

Because the proportion was so much greater than in typical countries.

My wife who keeps up with such matters suggested that in Australia wives would often be reluctant to let men look after infants or young children - because men just aren't as good at it, and dont anticipate as well what dangerous things children could do - and she had seen statistics showing that children had more injuries when looked after predominantly by males than by females.

I suggested that perhaps this had something to do with women having much much better peripheral vision than men, which enabled much better anticipation of dangers to their children.

It would be interesting to see if children in the care of males in Scandinavia suffer more injuries than those in the care of females, as is apparently the case down here. Or if they have somehow been able to overcome this problem.
Regards,
Renato

 

[mannej]

Because the proportion was so much greater than in typical countries.

My wife who keeps up with such matters suggested that in Australia wives would often be reluctant to let men look after infants or young children - because men just aren't as good at it, and dont anticipate as well what dangerous things children could do - and she had seen statistics showing that children had more injuries when looked after predominantly by males than by females.

I suggested that perhaps this had something to do with women having much much better peripheral vision than men, which enabled much better anticipation of dangers to their children.

It would be interesting to see if children in the care of males in Scandinavia suffer more injuries than those in the care of females, as is apparently the case down here. Or if they have somehow been able to overcome this problem.
Regards,
Renato

Sorry, but it is this type of attitude that your wife holds that I hate. It leads to incidents such as these, and having put up with the dagger eyes before it isn't a pleasant experience.

 

[Denali]

Because the proportion was so much greater than in typical countries.

My wife who keeps up with such matters suggested that in Australia wives would often be reluctant to let men look after infants or young children - because men just aren't as good at it, and dont anticipate as well what dangerous things children could do - and she had seen statistics showing that children had more injuries when looked after predominantly by males than by females.

I suggested that perhaps this had something to do with women having much much better peripheral vision than men, which enabled much better anticipation of dangers to their children.

It would be interesting to see if children in the care of males in Scandinavia suffer more injuries than those in the care of females, as is apparently the case down here. Or if they have somehow been able to overcome this problem.
Regards,
Renato

Women are often their own worse enemy when it comes to making our home life more difficult than it has to be by doing more of the child/home duties than necessary.

Its like when people think the father is "looking after" or "babysitting the kids for mum today". Its called parenting.

 

[burmans]

Women are often their own worse enemy when it comes to making our home life more difficult than it has to be by doing more of the child/home duties than necessary.

Its like when people think the father is "looking after" or "babysitting the kids for mum today". Its called parenting.

Its all about societal expectation and norms. As these Scandinavian countries and others have shown, its not really true, fathers can parent just as well as mothers.

 

[Renato1]

Sorry, but it is this type of attitude that your wife holds that I hate. It leads to incidents such as these, and having put up with the dagger eyes before it isn't a pleasant experience.

Thanks for the link to the irrelevant article.
My wife was relating her observation and statistics printed in women's magazines.

Don't like the statistics that children being looked after by men suffer more injuries? Go argue with the magazines who published it and the statisticians who collated the data and analysed it.
Regards,
Renato